The CC Bookshelf

[jencoulson]

I finally finished reading TSH and TLF. I read TSH first, and I admit I found TLF slightly disappointing. While Tartt retained her unique writing style, I found the novel to be very hard to get into. I didn't think the characters or setting were as well developed, and I hated the end.

[Sampaguita]

TSH readers (those of you that are not-- this contains spoilers):

When you read the book, did it seem that sometimes Donna Tartt's voice came out accidentally through Richard's narration?

I ask this because sometimes I felt like Richard's character broke. Donna Tartt's love for Henry-- or the inspiration for Henry-- came out very strongly in some instances, I felt. Sometimes, when Richard was staying in Henry's apartment... as the Argentina thing was unfolding... AND especially when Henry was off on his poison tangent. There was just something about his tone that SCREAMED a desperate kind of love... a love that wasn't supposed to be conveyed through Richard.

God, I loved Henry. I really did love Henry... and I could see him sinking... Whatever his motives were, I loved him. It was very apparent in the voice of the author that Donna Tartt loved him too... I don't have to book on me right now... but later I'll bring up my textual evidence.

d**n Julian Morrow! He told Henry that it would all turn out all right... and gave all the reassurances in the world... And then, he wasn't there when it mattered. And it wasn't due to any turn of conscience, either. He made all the show of loving Henry, and in the end, that "love" only existed to further his own means. Julian was a coward... and his betrayal only made Richard more admirable.

[ausaims]

With all this talk about this book I am going to have to read it...

[lizifer]

i can see what u mean about donna tartt comming out thru richard. i'm sure richard wans't *that* much in love with henry, but then again u never know!

personally i didn't fall in love with henry, but i loved francis and richard.

did any1 else cry at the end? i cried when francis tried to kill himself and when camilla turned down richard [d**n her!]

i loved julian at the begining, i felt he was a wonderful man but then i couldn't believe he just deserted henry and the others like that, i hated him after that!!

[Mandragora]

Okay, okay so we are discussing TSH now. To those who do no like spoilers, SKIP THIS ONE. Thankyouverymuch

Hmm. I can tell in the beginning that there could be something going on between Julian and Henry. It was probably DT's try at twisting it, esp the part where Henry kissed Julian, as Richard witnessed it. From there, one can tell that the relationship between Julian and Henry is not simply the mentor-student type as we know it. Francis, I think, (or was it Richard?) said that Henry loved Julian... I kinda interpret it that Henry is counting on Julian for SOMETHING, as how would a student put a teacher on the pedestal. Henry is a very much different character, and maybe he's quite hoping through Julian, he'll be redeemed.

I fell in-love with all of them. Their whole group... it's quite a cliche, when you really think about it, about this small group of what seem like elusive people... and I guess, Donna Tarrtt made us peek at the possible lives of these type of people that they are indeed extraordinary. Richard became a medium, the window of the readers. I think that Richard is not really a part of the group. Yes, he is with them, but it's like he's a mere spectator. I think it is given the fact that Richard is the most grounded one (to the point of him using them also) since that he's the one who got through all of it. If I were to graph or illustrate Richard's character, his would be the one who FLOATS over everything and I think the part, the 'convergence' at the hotel made him one of them in essence.

It was the bullet in Richard's stomach and Henry's trigger pointed to his temple. Those pages, for me, ties everything, and it made sense, from the ritual to the murder to the suicide. Henry's enigma is not that easy to resolve... in the end, I see Henry as the type who haunts people. Maybe it doesn't only haunt only Richard nor Donna Tartt, it's the readers as well.

Julian... yes, he is a coward, but I think he doesn't want to admit that he failed Henry as well. I think it is Julian who knew Henry the most, and he knew what Henry is capable of.

I 'cried' at the hotel room scene... pardon me for being dramatic, but the book felt like hot lead in my hands and I almost threw it across the room. Then the part where Richard confesses his love for Camilla, I quite like her answer, especially when Richard said that he loved Henry too, and Camilla says, "But it's not enough".

I guess this brings down to one of the premises that I detected in the book. Love is like the definition of beauty that Richard learned his first Greek sentence. Love, like beauty, we tremble before it. That's why loving is not always enough.

I have to stop, I feel like I am writing an essay with numerous grammatical errors But, well, it's seldom you encounter charactres such as these in books. TSH, for me, is the quintessential contemporary tragedy.

[Sampaguita]

TSH spoiler-- Avert your eyes now if you haven't read:

I could see the *final* death coming from a mile away. The moment Richard saw the reservations to Argentina, I knew Henry was going to die. I didn't know how it was going to happen, but I knew it was coming. And then when Charles went crazy, I thought it was going to be because of him.

For a moment, I felt like I was Camilla... and that last kiss... OMG!!! I felt so gutted.

If Henry had to die, I'm glad he died the way he did, though. I see it as heroism... And I blame Julian!

Julian's betrayal hurt me almost as much as Henry's death. More later...

[lizifer]

i really didn't see henrys death comming the way it did. i had to re-read that page a mumber of times before it sunk in that he'd killed himself. but then i realised if he was going to die, suicide like that would be the only way for him to go.

i fell in love with bunny and charles to a certain extent, but never camilla or henry, i don't know why! and when camilla turned down richard i hated her!

[Sampaguita]

TSH spoilers-- again...

I didn't particularly like Camilla, but I was sad for Richard when she turned him down. I could see why, though. Henry did kinda spoil her for anyone else.

I cried when Julian betrayed Henry-- my heart really did break for him. And I cried when Henry died. I can't say that I cried when Richard was rejected for the last time... but I did have that heavy, almost gutted, feeling.

I have trouble understanding why anyone loved Camilla. It seems that she was one dimensional except when she was manipulating Richard's heart-strings. I can't for the life of me see what Henry saw in her. It seems like her whole purpose in the story was to be an object of beauty. I didn't like her. It's weird, but I almost blame her for everything that went wrong. I wonder why that is.

And Julian. I blame him for every death in "The Secret History." Without him, Henry wouldn't have gone off to organize and push for the bacchanal... The farmer wouldn't have died the grisly death... They wouldn't have had to kill Bunny... and Henry wouldn't have died.

When you add Julian's almost god-like influence in Henry's life (and the lives of the rest of them) to everybody's (but Francis) desire for Camilla... the story was bound to end in tragedy.

::goes off to re-read book--again::

[lizifer]

glad some1 else can't understand why any1 would like camilla, i really can't see what was so special about her.

julian is deffinately responsible for every death, i think thats part of the reason he left, he knew he'd in a sense caused everything bad to happen.

i'm gonna leave it for a few months b4 i re-read it.

[ausaims]

Now I REALLY, REALLY think I am going to have to read this book, but I doubt it would be at the local library since it's pretty small. Perhaps the fiction library at Uni, or the arts library there?

[Mandragora]

MAJOR SPOILER (Further TSH discussion)

When you really think about it, Camilla is like the w*ore of the group, but I guess there is more to Camilla than being the only woman in the group. I mean, she slept with almost everyone, including her brother, for crying out loud, but I guess the problem with her is she is really alon, and maybe she's just looking for some kind of reassurance that it is not so.

I quite pity her, in a way, but I can't think of no better way to end her story, considering what she went through. She's punished and I do not want to think because she deserves it, I just think that is the price to pay for finding the only real thing in someone (Henry) who is almost too unreal.

If I were to blame anyone at all... I think not. I guess, with the ritual and everything, that is pretty much the cause for the hunger for beyond knowledge, and that is experience. And I guess that's what happens when realtime is challenged by something else. So this, is quite fundamental, you know, that The Group (except Bunny, I believe, and Richard), lives in a parallel universe, and the convergence with the real one, the one that keeps Bunny grounded, is the real tragedy of all. You cannot mix it.

They're all victims: Francis has to get married to this girl, Charles wants out but he cannot escape whereever he goes, and Camilla chooses to stay and live with Henry's memory, and for Henry, I believe, his only redemption is found in death. Julian has to get away, I think he knows that this could happen, and what made him really screw up is that he didn't give enough guidance, especially to Henry. He's also a victim of his own cowardice; he can only teach things but not save anyone from the dangers of it.

By the way, ANYONE at all who's read/reads McEwan? I love this writer, I am dying to discuss "Atonement". I am starting on "The Cement Garden", and the first few pages... OH MAN

[lizifer]

ausaims, if u can't find it in the library, buy it! its deffinately worth the money!

what does everyone think about cammilla and charles sleeing together? i think u could see it was happening b4 it was mentioned, it was kinda disturbing coz it made me realise that this kinda thing could/does happen in real life.

i hate the fact that francis had to marry that girl, i mean she wasn't even nice, i wish he could have at least ended up with someone better!

[Sampaguita]

Yup, "The Secret History" is definately worth buying. The first time I picked it up though, was from the public library... The second time too... Then I bought it. I started the book last September, but actually DID my work at the beginning of last quarter so forgot about it until checking it out again last December-- during finals... stupid me. And then bought it shortly thereafter to actually sit down and read it.

TSH spoilers:

I think it's ironic how, in the beginning, you get the feeling that the twins are engaging in some clandestine lascivious behavior, but through Richard's perception (or desire to kinda normalize his new friends) that possibility gradually gets erased. And it gets erased so much so that it's a surprise when the hints towards their twincestuous behavior arises again, it's a surprise.

I personally forgot about the twincest until Richard came over to alert everybody that Bunny told him the group's dirty little secret. Camilla says, "Let me try something... it's a code" and Charles flips out... I remember thinking "Oh, we're going down this road again!" But again, somehow the suspicion was abated until the funeral with Cloke's allusions to the late night calls, and that kiss.

I knew Henry and Camilla were going to get together because of a darn Vanity Fair interview with Donna Tartt... So I picked up on all the hints beforehand. However, when I read the article I nearly screamed, "Henry and Camilla! NOOOOOO!!!!!" It's stupid, but I think I wanted Henry for myself.

Camilla doesn't represent anything but the "pure" kind of beauty in this book. She doesn't stand for anything else. Henry represents hubris, repression and the liberation thereof. Richard represents innocence lost but at the same time he represents faith (in others). Charles is representative of violent desire and a list of other equally interesting things. Francis is representative of their time at Hampden... idyllic and fleetingly beautiful freedom-- snatched away in the (four year) blink of an eye. Camilla is just an object... an inaccessible object-- even to Henry, who puts her up on a pedestal. She's never really implicated directly in any of the stuff the boys are up to. Sure, she's there. But they're quick to say that she really had no part in ripping the farmer to shreds, pushing Bunny down the ravine... etc. Her hands are never really IN the crimes.

I feel sorry for Francis too. I think that if he was going to enter into a sham of a marriage, it should have been with Camilla. They understand each other... and I don't think that they'd betray their true loves or desires. Camilla could stay faithful to Henry, and Francis could... well, you know. But that would abate the tragedy of the book.

I have yet to clear some time to read McEwan. I'm already swamped... and I've been wasting precious working hours online reading inconsequential fanfiction AND books for fun. It's causing me to be a bit behind in my reading for "History of Dissonance" and the papers are coming up due in a few weeks for that class and my Ethnic Studies course... and I have yet to start my paper for the incomplete that I took in my best class last quarter. I swear... I feel like I'm living and working like a grad student-- and wasting time like one too. Good gracious, I'm only a third year undergrad.

[Mandragora]

Funny how much I spend on books! I don't bother to borrow from the library because the ones that I really want to read are not available... and besides, I collect books, so... ausaims, get yourself a copy of TSH, but I guess maybe you should borrow it before purchasing it and see for yourself if it's worth buying That's Tartt's first book, right? And TLF is her second, I believe... it took her, I guess, ten yers before she came up with another one!

Hm, how about other women writers? I know some of you read Margaret Atwood, I haven't really tried her... which Margaret Atwood book is best to start with? I am quite keen on Jeanette Winterson also... she's like this more sensual Kundera, in my opinion. Sylvia Plath... I haven't read "The Bell Jar", it's quite hard to find a copy of that here (and the lone copy I saw is just too expensive)... but heck, it is always interesting to read a writer who stuck her head in the oven, right?

Anyone who's read Anita Shreve? What do you guys think of her? One of her books is adapted into a screenplay, and I see a lot of her books displayed in the bookstore

[Sampaguita]

God, I haven't picked up my copy of "The Bell Jar" since first meeting Sean Cowley. I didn't like it. I remember pretending to like it (I was 15 or so at the time) because her image was wonderfully tragic and her poetry was pretty good. But I hated the book. The protagonist is so incredibly weak. And she drones on and on to no apparent point.

I've read most of one Anita Shreve book-- on someone's recommendation: "The Last Time They Met." And it was recommended to me because of a short, kinda postmodern piece I wrote last summer. (In which you are unsure whether everything you just read is couched in reality or not... and if it is couched in reality, did she kill the man that she loved most in the world.) My friend said that it reminded her of this particular novel. I have to say that I liked the beginning third, and the end third, but did not much care for the interlude in Africa. AND it would have been a much better read if it had been shorter. It was kinda both a prequel and sequel to her book "The Weight of Water" which was turned into a horrible movie.